Curse

Zuranthium · Oct 15, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

That would make it completely overpowered. Shadow Refuge is just fine.

Sereng Amaranth · Oct 15, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Serpent's Quickness + Shadow Refuge.

BahamutKaiser · Oct 15, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Assassin isn't just fine, and that is why a just fine healing skill isn't good enough. A just fine healing skill is for Warriors whos armor is so high that even with -40 armor, they still have the same armor spell casters do excluding the shield (this is with the 100 armor, or 80+20 vs physical). A just fine skill is for a just fine class. A finesse class needs perfectly tuned skills, not just fine skill.

They did buff Assassin skills because they are too weak, thus the obvious truth, Assassins are gimped. What they didn't do is fix the right skills. It isn't enough that the damage output of Dagger attacks and a few other improvements are panned out to balanced Assassins difficulty in combo attack chains and 2 handed weapon cost (or more specifically, they use a 2 handed weapon to wield those skills), they didn't remedy the real issue, which is that Assassins survival skills and defense alternative skills are not strong enough to compensate for this classes lower armor value.

The right skills need to be fixed in order to make Assassin a reasonable class to play, it doesn't matter how much damage the class does, or how fast it can do it, if the class sucks at staying alive it will never be an effective member choice for any party, survival is a neccessity for success in the majority of situations and objectives, and if you can't stay alive than your not worth bringing.

Shadowsteping, ever how you classify it, is a teleport of a different flavor. There are very, very few walls in GW, most of the time it is a chasm or cliff that your blocking your path. If you can reach an area by one means than you may as well reach it by another, you need a target to shadowstep, and if a necromancer can get there with a dead character, than an Assassin may as well with a live one. Last time I checked, it was pretty easy to jump massive cliffs and over walls with "super speed", it is certainly easier to walk up a wall than it is to magically teleport, and make no mistake, Assassin is a magic casting class as well as a physical combatant, there is no reason to restrict this, it just needs to be improved.

And though the trailers are never what we really get in the game, Visu teleported up the side of the entire Harvest Temple, Shadowsteping really isn't ment to be blocked by walls.

It is the simple things like Shadowstepping frequency which make Assassin much harder to keep up with and fun to play. It acts as a defensive measure because normal players will have more difficulty negotiating a Shadowstepping target rather than a running one, and being able to escape with other shadowstep skills allows them to advance, combo, and retreat without a fraction of the time taken to reach their target or escape.

Personally, I would rather they improve the Shadowsteps and leave Shadow Refuge the way it is, fixing Shadowsteps enhances the classes unique ability and allows for an original tactic. Improving Shadow Refuge just makes it easier to survive wile remaining simple and boring.

icedragon981 · Oct 16, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I stand by position to upgrade Shadow Refuge's healing to 6s of regen instead of 4s, but I forgot to add that it needs a .25s cast instead of 1s. THEN it would be a solid skill considering the Assassin's naturally poor defense. Of all the changes mentioned here, an improvement to Shadow Refuge is #1 on my list. I'd take it over any other skill upgrade.

Here, here!

Of all the changes I'd like to see, this would be it.

Shadow Refuge
5e 1/4s cast 6s recharge
For 4 seconds, you gain 5...9 Health Regeneration. When Shadow Refuge ends, you gain 20...68 Health if you are not attacking.

or

Shadow Refuge
5e 1/4s cast 8s recharge
For 6 seconds, you gain 5...9 Health Regeneration. When Shadow Refuge ends, you gain 20...68 Health if you are not attacking.

I believe that the assassin's shadowstepping is fine as it is for now, and the the assassin's defensive abilities are what need to be changed.

Zuranthium · Oct 16, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

I'm sorry but all of this "buff Shadow Refuge!" talk sounds like Random Arena rage from people who are mad that they can't do more damage than a warrior, have better movement abilities than a warrior, AND survive just as good as a warrior. The first two should hold true but certainly not the last...

These changes you suggest would make the spell the best non-elite self heal in the game. That's just not what the assassin is about. Go play a Dervish if you want to be a melee character with awesome self-preservation abilities.

legion_rat · Oct 16, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I'm sorry but all of this "buff Shadow Refuge!" talk sounds like Random Arena rage from people who are mad that they can't do more damage than a warrior, have better movement abilities than a warrior, AND survive just as good as a warrior. The first two should hold true but certainly not the last...

These changes you suggest would make the spell the best non-elite self heal in the game. That's just not what the assassin is about. Go play a Dervish if you want to be a melee character with awesome self-preservation abilities.

its not to out kill a war, its to be able to survive. the shadow step skills cost to much and the recharge sucks. Healing is minimal. even a freaking ele last longer. they get armor bonuses. they should drop deadly arts (which are weak) and add dexterity which adds to the abilty to dodge/evade. a assassin (ninja) isnt a tank but he or she knows how to get the hell out of the way. with a 25 or so energy none of the sins skills should be over 10 and i would say even lower (5) for most as you have to rely on skills as opposed to armor/shield like a war. as far as the dervish.....did you miss the point? this is about making the assassin more playable. not making someone play another proff.

~the shadow stepping rat~

The truth itself · Oct 16, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

This is the top #1 thing that is annoying about Guild Wars.. The ammount of useless skills.. There are always going to be some "weaker" skills, but 90% of the skills shouldn't be worthless.

/signed - and signed for all the other weak skills also. Especially worthless elites.

Zuranthium · Oct 16, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion_rat

its not to out kill a war, its to be able to survive.

What do you not understand...if an Assassin could survive really well then it would be imbalanced. They have better front-loaded damage, more options in their ability to disable opponents (in theory), and better mobility. A Warrior has better armor and more reliable DPS. Giving Assassins the best non-Monk self-heal in the game would simply not be fair, unless you lessened them in other areas (which should absolutely not be the goal...we want diversity and more playing styles and tactics).

NeHoMaR · Oct 16, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

... Enchantments are the realm of arcane spell casters, not hand-to-hand combat specialist ...

Dervishes?

About assassins, the only reason I don't play that class is for the combos; Combos are really powerful, too much indeed, but with all that evasion/blocking (I play Monk a lot) is frustrating (at least for me) trying to make a 3 skill combo; You need team play for make that combos all the time or a build that really reduce assassin power, and with pugs that is horrible, maybe with the Nightfall heroes things will be different; i.e. using a necro hero spamming OoA.

Zuranthium · Oct 16, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The truth itself

/signed - and signed for all the other weak skills also. Especially worthless elites.

I will do individual threads for each other class eventually.

BahamutKaiser · Oct 17, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Zuranthium is right, Assassins trademark is not defending and healing skills, that is Dervishes specialty. Assassin is ment to navigate the battle and place "critical" attacks on the enemy wile avoiding prolonged exposure to agresion.

Shadow Refuge isn't enough to save Assassin, and it really shouldn't be, changing the trigger to Running instead of Attacking would be a good change, but making Assassin tankworthy isn't proper.

Quick Damage and Quick movement are Assassins halmarks, his attacks are fair enough, but without reliable shadowstepping, they just can't get in and out of combat safely. Improved use of shadowstepping is what will define and strengthen the role of Assassin.

floppinghog · Oct 17, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

correct, the assassin shouldnt be able to tank dmg like a warrior, WHILE doing dmg. thats just it. they should be in more danger while attacking, while running and doin somethin else they should gain armor or better healing from shadow refuge.

I like the idea of making shadowstepping making your lose all adred, and walls shouldnt block shadowstepping... why is shadowstepping blocked by a wall? it shouldnt work like a instantly run up to target...stop gimpin the assassin.
one of the issues i think is, its not a core class like rit and paragon, derv will be. thus, not respected to the point of being completely balanced. thats the problem.

gw should BUILD off the new classes, make them completely balanced with all others, the only stand-alone features there should be is, yes the FIRST 6 classes are given to all chapters. but it would give you more incentive to care about other chapters, being able to play a completely new class,thats continously supported. you cant help the fact of needing other chapters to be on the same grounds of other players, you cant gimp new classes to make them just gimick options to the core 6....

Winterclaw · Oct 17, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

I would change shadow refuge to have it's healing as an automatic thing when the enchanement ends, attacking or not. But I wouldn't make the healing conditional on running. There are times when you take some damage but don't need to run. Anyways the best retreat abilities for a sassi is recall and that other teleport one so that means he'd have to run away first to get the benefit and then teleport. Then you have the problem of the spell ending in the middle of a combo and maybe you don't want to run.

BTW, sometimes I put up shadow refuge before a fight starts and keep using it when I think I'm not taking enough damage to justify retreating.

And don't forget guys that sassis are "gimped" because they aren't tanks. If you want to tank just bring watch yourself and bonetti's defense.

Anyways, a sassi probably shouldn't be the first person charging into a battle in the first place. That's the tank's job. Once the tank has agro, then you come in.

lord_shar · Oct 17, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Zuranthium is right, Assassins trademark is not defending and healing skills, that is Dervishes specialty. Assassin is ment to navigate the battle and place "critical" attacks on the enemy wile avoiding prolonged exposure to agresion.

Shadow Refuge isn't enough to save Assassin, and it really shouldn't be, changing the trigger to Running instead of Attacking would be a good change, but making Assassin tankworthy isn't proper.

Quick Damage and Quick movement are Assassins halmarks, his attacks are fair enough, but without reliable shadowstepping, they just can't get in and out of combat safely. Improved use of shadowstepping is what will define and strengthen the role of Assassin.

The suggestion on SR is an excellent one. Bonus health while moving still prevents outright tanking while making the class more combat-survivable. The problem with the "while attack" health bonus at SR's termination is that if forces agression when the assassin needs it least. This makes SR's conditional heal component pretty much non-functional (like asking a man with broken legs to run to the hospital for treatment).

Winterclaw · Oct 17, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

I would think that a sassi would need healing more in the thick of battle than running or teleporting away.

ShadowStorm · Oct 17, 2006, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Signet of Obfuscation
Casting Time - 1/4 second
Recharge - 1 second

Shadowstep to a random location in the area. If this signet is activated more than 4 times in any 10 second period, it is disabled for 10 seconds.

Zuranthium · Oct 17, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

I don't really like that idea, at all.

Zuranthium · Oct 18, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

The suggestion on SR is an excellent one. Bonus health while moving still prevents outright tanking while making the class more combat-survivable. The problem with the "while attack" health bonus at SR's termination is that if forces agression when the assassin needs it least. This makes SR's conditional heal component pretty much non-functional (like asking a man with broken legs to run to the hospital for treatment).

I could see the bonus health for SR being non-conditional but the actual amount would also have to be decreased or it would become overpowered.

Painbringer · Oct 18, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Personally I would be happy If Flashing Blades would just stay the same but change to a standard skill not an elite, but I am pretty sure that would never happen. So I would live with it if it was changed to 75%

lord_shar · Oct 18, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I could see the bonus health for SR being non-conditional but the actual amount would also have to be decreased or it would become overpowered.

SR's bonus health used to be unconditional in FPE. It was nerfed with the conditional health boost prior to the official Factions launch. The bonus health while-moving or while not attacking would be the best compromise suggested so far.